They just don't know how to think

[lynxreign]

This morning on NPR there was a story about San Francisco. SF is a "sanctuary city". In other words, they don't automatically send every illegal they come across to the Feds for deportation. There was a protest and counter-protest there yesterday, described in the story teaser as a "clash", despite the protest being peaceful, though loud.

On the one side you had hundreds of people from immigrant's rights groups, on the other you had a dozen "Minutemen". You know about the "Minutemen", the idiots who have taken it upon themselves to "patrol" the border with Mexico.

The underlying cause for this appearance by the Asshats, sorry, the Minutemen, was a crime committed by an illegal immigrant. The immigrant in question is a minor who had already been arrested several times for violent crimes. The then committed a triple murder in a drive-by, using an AK-47. Horrible? Yes. Worthy of prison and/or deportation? Sure. However the underlying cause of this crime was not that he was an immigrant or an illegal immigrant.

It isn't as though no American citizen (of any race you care to choose) has ever committed murder. Surely no legal citizen has ever joined a gang or killed someone with a gun or performed a drive-by. I mean, if it weren't for the illegals, there'd be no gun violence or crime in the USA at all!

Using this crime as a prop for their xenophobic, racist crusade makes about as much sense as blaming the British for shipwrecks. It is a complete disconnect, but since so much of this country is completely irrational, they make the connection and get people to agree with them.

Comments

[chaoticmoth.livejournal.com]

Okay, first? I COMPLETELY blame the British for shipwrecks.

I think the point the Minutemen are making is more of a general system problem, that A)people here illegally shouldn't be here and should be deported, and B)if you know someone is here illegally, you have caught them committing crimes and have identified them as an illegal immigrant, why the hell is the person NOT deported, and in this case if they had been deported the murder wouldn't have happened. I don't think they are saying the underlying cause of the crime was his being an illegal alien, I think they are saying that because we had a way to address his illegal status and didn't take it that the crime was essentially allowed to happen.

I guess for me it is like when someone (nationality doesn't matter, could be a US citizen) is pulled over for speeding. Say a cop doesn't run them through the system, gives them a ticket/warning, and then lets them on the way. Then we find out later that this was someone with outstanding arrest warrants, and after going on his way the guy killed three people. We would fault the cop/system for not running the person though the database since the warrants would have popped up, the person would have been arrested, and the killings wouldn't have happened.

[lynxreign.livejournal.com]

Except that the Minutemen's purpose is anti-illegal-immegration. Their message is "This is what illegal immegrants do to our society." If individual in question were an American citizen, this all would have played out exactly as it has, except the Minutemen wouldn't be there protesting today.

if you know someone is here illegally, you have caught them committing crimes and have identified them as an illegal immigrant, why the hell is the person NOT deported

Define the level of "crimes". The way the policy there is today, if the person is an adult and commits a felony, and they are an illegal immegrant, they are deported. The only reason this person wasn't is because he is a minor. SF is now reviewing that policy, but if a 6 year old kid steals an apple, do you ship him off to his country of origin?

people here illegally shouldn't be here and should be deported

1) And who takes the jobs they're doing? There are more illegal immigrants in this country than there are legal people who are unemployed.

2) Deporting that many people all at once will put a strain on the jobs market and cause inflation.

3) Deporting that many people all at once is a logistical nightmare

4) Deporting that many people all at once would cost a fortune

5) Finding the people to deport them is nigh impossible

The only way you're going to stop people from coming here is to somehow effectively punish the people giving them jobs without destroying the economy.

[maps-or-guitars.livejournal.com]

If I ever heard of a Minuteman complaining about illegal alien Euros, I would credit what you say, and perhaps what they say.

As it is, their beef appears to be entirely with Mexicans, so any of the yammerings of the Minutemen just come off as rationalizations for an ugly, racist witch-hunt.

They're a load of brownshirts and I have no use for them at all.

[allegedly.livejournal.com]

I know what a "whitehat" is, but what's a "brownshirt?"

[maps-or-guitars.livejournal.com]

Nazi thugs.

[editswlonghair.livejournal.com]

I've seen news reports of a few lonely Minutemen in VT and NH, guarding the border to stop the hordes of damn dirty Canucks and their strong dollar. ;)

But yeah, it's mostly a 'scary brown people' thing.

[editswlonghair.livejournal.com]

"The only way you're going to stop people from coming here is to somehow effectively punish the people giving them jobs"

And therein lies the rub-- as long as there is money to be made by country club Republicans, this shall remain a wedge social issue that will deliberately remain unsolved and exploitable to fire up the base.

If individual in question were an American citizen,

[chaoticmoth.livejournal.com]

I won't argue that were the circumstances different (and there is some dispute about whether the person is here legally or not, so the result might have been the same even under scrutiny) the situation would definitely play out with the same end result, but that isn't the point. The point is that if the person is/was an illegal alien there are ways it could have been handled that would have not resulted in the murders.

And I am completely familiar with arguments you present, you and I have gone back and forth about them before. I still say "It's illegal". :)

[maps-or-guitars.livejournal.com]

seen news reports of a few lonely Minutemen in VT and NH, guarding the border to stop the hordes of damn dirty Canucks and their strong dollar.

You sure that wasn't the Daily Show?

As for the Canucks, I say bring 'em in by the busload. They're buying maps - these days, some of my best clients are Canadianni.

[lynxreign.livejournal.com]

You can say "It's illegal" all you want.

The point is that if the person is/was an illegal alien there are ways it could have been handled that would have not resulted in the murders.

Sure and if we had better gun control laws or combatted gangs more effectively or had gotten this kid a job or put all brown people into camps or thrown the kid into jail for life on his first offense then the murders wouldn't have happened either.

In what way could you have handled this? Would you have deported a minor? Perhaps to a country he hasn't been to since he was an infant?

so any of the yammerings of the Minutemen

[chaoticmoth.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree that they aren't exactly the model of the attitude and approach that might be appropriate, I think "dangerous nutjobs" is probably what comes first to a lot of peoples' minds when they think about them, but the kernel of "people are entering illegally" is what resonates with me. And for me it doesn't matter which country they come from.

I think they are targeting Mexicans because:
-Mexico immediately borders the US and has an obvious and documented problem with border security. Canada also has its problems, but we don't have the same level of problem there.

-When broken down by country of origin, Mexico accounts for over 1/2 of the estimated undocumented aliens.
http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/illegal.pdf

Would you have deported a minor

[chaoticmoth.livejournal.com]

Where are the minor's parents? If they are outside the country, that's where he goes. If they are inside the country illegally, they all go. If the parents are here legally but brought him here illegally then their visa status may be at risk and they may end up going ( I am not familiar enough with the rules, but I am guessing their status could be revoked).

Bottom line, there are legal processes to go through for proper entry into the US and to remain here. Difficult? Yes. Nearly impossible for some? Yes. But my expectation is that just as I should follow the laws of another country to gain entry, so should people entering the US follow our laws. Break the law, face the consequences.

[lynxreign.livejournal.com]

Of course Mexicans = brown, Canadians = White has nothing to do with it. Mexicans speak Spanish, Canadians speak English has nothing to do with it.

Don't kid yourself, they're targeting Mexicans because the Minutemen are a racist organization. If they weren't, you'd see some hispanics or blacks in the organization. You don't. They're White.

How did your ancestors get here again? I really don't remember.

Re: Would you have deported a minor

[lynxreign.livejournal.com]

If they are inside the country illegally, they all go

Yeah? How are you going to find them?

Bottom line, there are legal processes to go through for proper entry into the US and to remain here

Sure, the wait time is only what, 10 years? And if you have no skills?

And since the immegration policy focuses on skilled laborers, what happens to the companies that are relying on them?

Re: Would you have deported a minor

[chaoticmoth.livejournal.com]

If there simple answers and solutions this would not be a polarizing national debate. :)

Re: so any of the yammerings of the Minutemen

[maps-or-guitars.livejournal.com]

I think our immigration laws are wrongheaded; if we opened up more legal immigration, we'd have better regulation of the huddled masses that currently are pretty freely coming across anyway. It would be safer all around. Our current policy may be legal; but that doesn't make it right.

I think they are targeting Mexicans because
Do you really? That might be you talking, there. I think that the folks actually packing their pickup trucks and shotguns into the desert and playing at border patrol, or at least pretending that they would while showing up at rallies, are a different kettle of fish.

I say bring 'em in by the busload

[chaoticmoth.livejournal.com]

Wait, isn't Canada already our 51st state? :)

There are minutemen branches in a lot of the Canadian border states.

Re: I say bring 'em in by the busload

[maps-or-guitars.livejournal.com]

There are minutemen branches in a lot of the Canadian border states. Well, I suppose that's "freedom fighter" country, so I guess that's not too surprising. I'm trying to figure whether they'll be the "I'd be at the VFW if I was a VFW, who brought beer" type or whether they're the "I'd have been at the rally but I had a batch of meth going" type of militiaman.

What if...

[aliwings.livejournal.com]

If all the illegals were legalized and had to start paying taxes and businesses had to treat them fairly - what would the impact be on the economy?

I don't see how we "win" by making immigration so goddamn difficult. Hell, just to get our darling boy immigrated here cost $600 and 3-4 months of paperwork and that was completed befgore 9/11.(not discussing the rest of the adoption fees/process).

[lynxreign.livejournal.com]

I'm glad to see you admit that it isn't as simple as "But they're illegal".

Re: What if...

[lynxreign.livejournal.com]

The costs of good would go up because businesses would have to pay legal wages. But the tax revenues would also go up and would go up by more than just the increase in pay would bring because that'd be starting from zero.

Of course, you could reduce the burden on businesses by instituting national health care and pay for it with the increase in revenue from the newly taxed residents.

I think our immigration laws are wrongheaded

[chaoticmoth.livejournal.com]

That I agree with 100%. And legal vs right is something I also won't argue. Laws need to change to fix the problem moving forward, but that doesn't address the people who broke the laws in the first place. Gay marriage is an example. If some town clerk breaks the law to issue a license in an area that it isn't legal (not even sure if there are laws against issuing the license, but you get my drift), then the clerk should be punished with the penalty for breaking that law, but gay marriage should be legal, and hopefully will be everywhere eventually.

True motives are hard to determine, though many of the minutemen are probably racist, but the facts are the facts as far as which country makes up the biggest part of the illegal immigration pie. And targeting that country and the obviously porous border with that country seems to be a logical choice.

Re: I think our immigration laws are wrongheaded

[maps-or-guitars.livejournal.com]

Meh. If a law is wrong it has no value, and enforcing it is throwing good money after bad. The law is *creating* the real problems associated with the immigration issue. Change the law, admit it was wrong, and offer amnesty to the immigrants while coming down hard on the coyotes and country clubbers who preyed on them.

Canadians = White has nothing to do with it.

[chaoticmoth.livejournal.com]

In 1996, the most recent data I could find (ie - the link I posted) Mexicans made up 54% of the illegal immigrant population with approximately 2.7 million people. Canada accounted for 2.4% with 120 thousand. If you click the link and just go to the last page it has the top twenty countries of origin and their contributions.
Also in the report, of the 2.7 million illegals from Mexico, only 16 percent are overstays, meaning the person entered legally in the first place. 84% entered illegally from the get-go. Central America also has a low 26% of overstays with 74% entering illegally. The rest of the countries add up to 91% overstays, meaning only 9% entered illegally in the first place. And while the report doesn't address where those entering the country come through illegally, I am going to guess that it was at the Candian and Mexican Borders.

As for how I got here? Powerful white people seizing land of course! I have a couple of lines that go back to the Mayflower.

Re: I think our immigration laws are wrongheaded

[chaoticmoth.livejournal.com]

But as a nation of laws we base out society on following the laws and trying to change the ones we disagree with as things evolve. Since I get some firsthand experience with the visa laws and regulations from my job I know that things tighten and loosen, sometimes without much warning, all the time. Change can happen, does happen, and will happen, but while we discuss this from the sense of the moral rightness of the arguments the other side feels the same way. Sadly we are a nation that is sharply divided on this instead of meeting in a commonsense middle. What's the saying? Imagine someone of average intelligence and then realize that half the country is dumber than that?