They just don't know how to think

[lynxreign]

This morning on NPR there was a story about San Francisco. SF is a "sanctuary city". In other words, they don't automatically send every illegal they come across to the Feds for deportation. There was a protest and counter-protest there yesterday, described in the story teaser as a "clash", despite the protest being peaceful, though loud.

On the one side you had hundreds of people from immigrant's rights groups, on the other you had a dozen "Minutemen". You know about the "Minutemen", the idiots who have taken it upon themselves to "patrol" the border with Mexico.

The underlying cause for this appearance by the Asshats, sorry, the Minutemen, was a crime committed by an illegal immigrant. The immigrant in question is a minor who had already been arrested several times for violent crimes. The then committed a triple murder in a drive-by, using an AK-47. Horrible? Yes. Worthy of prison and/or deportation? Sure. However the underlying cause of this crime was not that he was an immigrant or an illegal immigrant.

It isn't as though no American citizen (of any race you care to choose) has ever committed murder. Surely no legal citizen has ever joined a gang or killed someone with a gun or performed a drive-by. I mean, if it weren't for the illegals, there'd be no gun violence or crime in the USA at all!

Using this crime as a prop for their xenophobic, racist crusade makes about as much sense as blaming the British for shipwrecks. It is a complete disconnect, but since so much of this country is completely irrational, they make the connection and get people to agree with them.

Comments

so any of the yammerings of the Minutemen

[chaoticmoth.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree that they aren't exactly the model of the attitude and approach that might be appropriate, I think "dangerous nutjobs" is probably what comes first to a lot of peoples' minds when they think about them, but the kernel of "people are entering illegally" is what resonates with me. And for me it doesn't matter which country they come from.

I think they are targeting Mexicans because:
-Mexico immediately borders the US and has an obvious and documented problem with border security. Canada also has its problems, but we don't have the same level of problem there.

-When broken down by country of origin, Mexico accounts for over 1/2 of the estimated undocumented aliens.
http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/illegal.pdf

[lynxreign.livejournal.com]

Of course Mexicans = brown, Canadians = White has nothing to do with it. Mexicans speak Spanish, Canadians speak English has nothing to do with it.

Don't kid yourself, they're targeting Mexicans because the Minutemen are a racist organization. If they weren't, you'd see some hispanics or blacks in the organization. You don't. They're White.

How did your ancestors get here again? I really don't remember.

Canadians = White has nothing to do with it.

[chaoticmoth.livejournal.com]

In 1996, the most recent data I could find (ie - the link I posted) Mexicans made up 54% of the illegal immigrant population with approximately 2.7 million people. Canada accounted for 2.4% with 120 thousand. If you click the link and just go to the last page it has the top twenty countries of origin and their contributions.
Also in the report, of the 2.7 million illegals from Mexico, only 16 percent are overstays, meaning the person entered legally in the first place. 84% entered illegally from the get-go. Central America also has a low 26% of overstays with 74% entering illegally. The rest of the countries add up to 91% overstays, meaning only 9% entered illegally in the first place. And while the report doesn't address where those entering the country come through illegally, I am going to guess that it was at the Candian and Mexican Borders.

As for how I got here? Powerful white people seizing land of course! I have a couple of lines that go back to the Mayflower.

.

[lynxreign.livejournal.com]

Sure, statistics are nice, but listen to the Mniutemen when they're interviewed and you'll get a sense of why they're targeting Mexicans.

Re: .

[chaoticmoth.livejournal.com]

I remember when they first made news and the first thought I had was along the lines of "rebranding the KKK".

Re: .

[lynxreign.livejournal.com]

Now with more spiffy uniforms and fewer sheets!

Re: so any of the yammerings of the Minutemen

[maps-or-guitars.livejournal.com]

I think our immigration laws are wrongheaded; if we opened up more legal immigration, we'd have better regulation of the huddled masses that currently are pretty freely coming across anyway. It would be safer all around. Our current policy may be legal; but that doesn't make it right.

I think they are targeting Mexicans because
Do you really? That might be you talking, there. I think that the folks actually packing their pickup trucks and shotguns into the desert and playing at border patrol, or at least pretending that they would while showing up at rallies, are a different kettle of fish.

I think our immigration laws are wrongheaded

[chaoticmoth.livejournal.com]

That I agree with 100%. And legal vs right is something I also won't argue. Laws need to change to fix the problem moving forward, but that doesn't address the people who broke the laws in the first place. Gay marriage is an example. If some town clerk breaks the law to issue a license in an area that it isn't legal (not even sure if there are laws against issuing the license, but you get my drift), then the clerk should be punished with the penalty for breaking that law, but gay marriage should be legal, and hopefully will be everywhere eventually.

True motives are hard to determine, though many of the minutemen are probably racist, but the facts are the facts as far as which country makes up the biggest part of the illegal immigration pie. And targeting that country and the obviously porous border with that country seems to be a logical choice.

Re: I think our immigration laws are wrongheaded

[maps-or-guitars.livejournal.com]

Meh. If a law is wrong it has no value, and enforcing it is throwing good money after bad. The law is *creating* the real problems associated with the immigration issue. Change the law, admit it was wrong, and offer amnesty to the immigrants while coming down hard on the coyotes and country clubbers who preyed on them.

Re: I think our immigration laws are wrongheaded

[chaoticmoth.livejournal.com]

But as a nation of laws we base out society on following the laws and trying to change the ones we disagree with as things evolve. Since I get some firsthand experience with the visa laws and regulations from my job I know that things tighten and loosen, sometimes without much warning, all the time. Change can happen, does happen, and will happen, but while we discuss this from the sense of the moral rightness of the arguments the other side feels the same way. Sadly we are a nation that is sharply divided on this instead of meeting in a commonsense middle. What's the saying? Imagine someone of average intelligence and then realize that half the country is dumber than that?

[lynxreign.livejournal.com]

If we were a nation of laws, that'd be fine, but we're not. We're partly a nation of laws and partly a nation of power and priviledge.

[maps-or-guitars.livejournal.com]

What he^ said.

and partly a nation of power and priviledge

[chaoticmoth.livejournal.com]

Which is what happens when you don't enforce the laws. :)

[lynxreign.livejournal.com]

So until the laws are enforced evenly and unjust laws are eradicated, why pick this one to enforce?

So until the laws are enforced evenly and unjust laws are eradicated, why pick this one to enforce?

[chaoticmoth.livejournal.com]

I am in favor of enforcing all the laws, not just this one. As for eradicating unjust laws, as soon as you convince enough people of your view that will happen. Changing or striking down a law is a legal process within the law, so more power to you! :)

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[lynxreign.livejournal.com]

All the laws? Really? Then you'd best get busy!
It’s against the law to sing off key. (http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/north-carolina) As I recall, you might be guilty of that one.

And Amy shouldn't go to Charlotte
In Charlotte, women must have their bodies covered by at least 16 yards of cloth at all times. (http://www.azzit.de/humor/30.html)

You'd better how your daughter isn't a prodigy
it is against the law for children under the age of seven to go to college. (http://www.anvari.org/cols/Weird_Laws_of_the_United_States/North_Calironia.html)

And be on the lookout for unruly animals
it is against the law for dogs and cats to fight. (http://www.strangefacts.com/laws.html)

And those are just a few from your state. You really want resources and time wasted on this crap?

[chaoticmoth.livejournal.com]

Nope, I want the lawmakers to remove them from the books. Why don't they? Because they aren't enforced. If they were enforced they would be changed, here is a perfectly timed news story to prove my point. :)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080731/ap_on_re_us/gay_marriage

[lynxreign.livejournal.com]

So by your logic you should go agitate to have them enforced.

[chaoticmoth.livejournal.com]

If I wasn't the lazy american that I admit I am that would probably be a good idea. :)

Re: so any of the yammerings of the Minutemen

[(Anonymous)]

Many people label the Minutemen as racists, what do you really know of their activities? Have you been to the border to see first hand what is happening there? I did two years ago, I went with an open mind and as I got closer to the base camp on a ranch in southern Arizona, I stopped and talked to four border patrol agents separately and asked about the organization, their replies were all positive and they thanked me for my interest and concern for border security and appreciation of the job the border patrol agents in the field deal with daily. I spent the weekend participating in the border watch operation, 24 miles north of the border, after receiving training in the Minuteman standard operating procedures (SOP) (if you go to the MCDC web site you can read it for yourself) this training was conducted in a professional manner and each person had a one on one encounter with the vetting official from the Minutemen, this was done to weed out any potential bad apple's. I have since went on to join their Search and Rescue team who's members pay for all their own equipment and spend as much as 36 hours in the field carrying not only what they need but a first aid kit and a minimum of two gallons of water for anyone found in distress. So for those of you who think they are nothing but racist nuts, I would encourage you to at least take a look, they are compassionate folks who care about others.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=pvfvaUZkcPU&feature=email
Don S
Minuteman AZ